The Picasso Group elected to do the Paragone group discussion “real-time in the Chat Room on the WebCT site. We had a lively discussion, with a few glitches since one member had some trouble logging on and staying connected. We managed to all get our input into the system one way or another and actually reached a consensus regarding the question of whether painting or sculpture is the “higher” form. The group discussion, intended to heighten our understanding of the differences between the creation of three- and two- dimensional objects, did a good job of eliciting discussion concerning the differences.

Having completed the Michelangelo/Leonardo Art Projects before beginning this assignment made each of the participants base input on experience. Four had prepared drawings and one a sculpture. Despite this difference of viewpoint based upon experience, each participant in the discussion came into the forum with an open mind as to the superiority of one or the other of the two formats. The discussion began with each student sharing with our group members the experience of walking in the shoes of the artist and the difficulties they encountered. Generally the media chosen was a result of concern about the greater difficulty involved in the other format. We had all shared images of our project on the blog and referred to those as we discussed the paragone. With some variations we found that the others had similar difficulties in preparing their projects. We approached the discussion by using the questions Professor DeWitte provided as the backbone of our chat.

Did the project take the amount of effort you expected?
On this question it seems that the majority found the project to be less demanding on their time than they had anticipated.
Explain the challenges you incurred.
The challenges that the participants focused on were in the extensive preparatory work involved in the projects. The technical preparation for the drawings surprised everyone. Rather than simply sitting down and sketching, each of the students spent time drawing octogonals, vanishing point and horizon. The efforts required to utilize shading and fuzziness to assist in adding depth was also mentioned.
Did this experience give you new insight and/or new respect for sculptors/painters?
Invariably everyone expressed a new appreciation for the work that must go into creating painting or sculpture. I think everyone had a respect for the “talent” that an artist must bring to play, but the sheer work involved in preparation of the media came as a surprise and deepened everyone’s respect for the professional artist.
Which part of the paragone could you most relate to because of your recent art project?
The group found the ideas about light and shadow to be very interesting. The fact that the sculptor is faced with serious challenges because the subtractive nature of the medium places an enormous planning burden on the artist in addition to making the choice of media critical since it must withstand the trauma of the sculptor’s tools and not shatter. In general the group felt that Leonardo put the painter in a “higher class” tending to characterize the sculptors work and environment as almost lower class or tradesman-like.
Which part of Leonardo’s argument was the strongest? Which part was the weakest?
The discussion of the strength and weaknesses of Leonardo’s arguments were very lively. We opened with comments about Leonardo’s focus on the use of light and shadow to create a three dimensional world on the canvas as the painter’s challenge and area of excellence. The painter’s ability to create perspective was mentioned as well.
Which part of the sculptor’s argument was the strongest? Which part was the weakest?
The subtractive nature of the sculptor’s art was the focus of our discussion on the strength of the argument for the sculptor. Because Leonardo focused so exclusively on the painter it was difficult to identify any weakness in the argument for the sculptor.
Do you think one type of art is superior to another?
This is where our group reached a quick consensus. We read the Paragone as the statement of the merits of two forms of art, nut one that was clearly written from the viewpoint of a painter. Leonardo’s argument failed to sway the group. The consensus was that these two forms, though very different in their demands upon the artist were neither superior nor inferior.
Do you think a discussion such as the paragone is useful?
Again on this question the group found agreement. We all agreed that the discussion of the paragone, particularly in light of our recent efforts to create a work on our own was an excellent way to solidify what we had learned.
How did your week as an artist influence your interpretation of this reading?
Each student came into the discussion with a personal experience that was pertinent to the discussion that they could attribute to the recent effort to utilize the techniques of the working artist.
Did your group reach a consensus?
Our group did reach a consensus, and while bringing many particular experiences to the conversation, the grounding of the discussion in experience made for an easily achieved unity of perspective.



DISCUSSION 3/1/09
Roy Mullins>> 1. Did the project take the amount of effort you
expected?
Mario Maiorana>> Yes
Roy Mullins>> That's the first question in the "lesson."
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes, I know that. We need to actually decide
as a group if we are going to proceed without Johnny.
Vanessa Mayhew>> If he doesn't participate I won't be nice in
my evals
Mario Maiorana>> We should
Roy Mullins>> We can wait for Johnny, but I thought I'd get that
up for cosideration.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Alright. I agree. Karyn, what do you think?
Karyn McCoy>> I think we should proceed.
Vanessa Mayhew>> that's fine Roy I just wanted to make sure we
all agreed.
Karyn McCoy>> So start
Vanessa Mayhew>> Actually, mine took less time than I anticipated.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I am an AWFUL artist but I was able to put together
something simple quicker than I thought
Karyn McCoy>> Once I got started it didnt take as long.
Karyn McCoy>> I think I too was stressing not being an artist-I
was wishing I was sculpting
Mario Maiorana>> Mine didnt take long but it was alot easier
than the drawing you gus did.
Roy Mullins>> The assignment took considerably more time than
I anticipated. The technical aspects of preparing the sheet
with vanishing point, horizon and orthogonals took a lot
of time .
Vanessa Mayhew>> I don't think I agree. I feel that the sculpting
would have been much more difficult
Vanessa Mayhew>> I used my eraser A LOT. with mistakes in sculpting,
it is permanent.
Mario Maiorana>> your being kind
Roy Mullins>> I had a general idea of the elements I wanted to
include, but setting up the page to get the perspctive was
a new experience.
Karyn McCoy>> I think it was actually choosing the topic-I dont
know I think I may have done better. I learn to appreciate
artists talent.
Roy Mullins>> I definitely steered clear od the sculpting. On
the old #2 pencils I always wore out the eraser before the
lead.
Karyn McCoy>> Me too. There was a lot of erasing going on.
Roy Mullins>> I found the material on the Leonardo's Perspective
site very helpful.
Mario Maiorana>> The only callenge was if you try to take off
too much material at once you fracture the object
Vanessa Mayhew>> Exactly, there were may difficult sides to drawing
and without experiencing sculpting I would argue that it
would be more difficult
Vanessa Mayhew>> but image how many times I used my eraser, that
would be a about 40 new bars of soap!
Vanessa Mayhew>> by the way guys, a girl texted me back and told
me that he gave me the wrong number. I knew he hadn't given
us the right one
Roy Mullins>> 2. Explain the challenges you incurred.
Roy Mullins>> Not reaching Johnny!
Karyn McCoy>> I concur
Mario Maiorana>> Leonardo made painting sound alot more romantic
than sculpture
Karyn McCoy>> I think it was his passion. After looking at his
paintings there is such depth.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Setting the scene for my painting, drawing straight
lines and making the background seem more fuzzy
Karyn McCoy>> I think my depth perception.
Roy Mullins>> I learned a lot. I can draw a picture with words
far more easily.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Mario, do you agree it is more romantic?
Mario Maiorana>> I do it is definately alot cleaner
Roy Mullins>> The picture he painted (with words) of the two
worlds, of the painter and sculptor were very different.
Karyn McCoy>> I dont know if I agree Mario. They are two different
things. Sculptures have passion also. They are extrodinary
with their ability to relate to the materials they use.
Mario Maiorana>> true
Roy Mullins>> I thought he introduced "class" intothe discussion,
making the sculptor sound more like a craftsman.
Mario Maiorana>> I agree
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes, he did make a huge distinction. The main
argument we should figure out is if Picasso was correct?
Vanessa Mayhew>> I mean, I do agree that the sculptor is more
of a craftsman but it still takes much mental preparation
like the paintings.
Mario Maiorana>> I think Picasso was a little biased
Roy Mullins>> Leonardo hid much of the dirty work. An artist
always has paint under the nails .
Mario Maiorana>> sculptures do last longer without care
Karyn McCoy>> I think Picasso saw it through a painters eyes
Mario Maiorana>> yes
Roy Mullins>> Hey giys,I think the Paragon is Leonardo's.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes he was extremely biased
Vanessa Mayhew>> yes, it is.
Mario Maiorana>> can we now relate to these artists
Karyn McCoy>> I believe so. Understanding Leonardo's passion
and his view.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I can't relate fully, but I can slightly see
into the world of art and how much really goes into it.
Roy Mullins>> I have an entirely new respect for the technical
skill and traiing.
Karyn McCoy>> I find it amazing what they could do then with
limited resources.
Mario Maiorana>> What do you guys think about question 4
Vanessa Mayhew>> Alright, Which part of the paragone could you
most relate to because of your recent art project?
Roy Mullins>> I think I found the skills required to create three
dimensions in a two dimensional medium the most challenging
and Leonardo's comments sbout the use of light and shadow
to accomplish the task.
Karyn McCoy>> I too related to the light and shadow...or my fortunate
ability to erase my mistakes.
Mario Maiorana>> I will agree with the part that talks about
not being able to add to the material if you take too much
off.
Roy Mullins>> If I had used paint it would have weighed two hundred
pounds. Layer, on layer, on layer..........
Vanessa Mayhew>> I agree with the argument of shadows and lights
and how nature provide's these for sculptor's work. I also
agree that often there may be class distinctions.
Karyn McCoy>> Exactly.
Vanessa Mayhew>> *Which part of Leonardo's argument was the strongest?
the weakest?
Roy Mullins>> I thought his weakest argument on behalf of the
painters was that they lived in cleaner houses, had music
played ansd books re3ad. I think that's where the class concept
comes in.
Mario Maiorana>> yes
Vanessa Mayhew>> I feel that the strongest part was the painter's
task of evaluation of shadows, but the weakest was the "regard
to durability painting is equal to sculpture and surpasses
it with regard to beauty, since in it are combined the two
perspectives, but in sculpture in the round there is no perspective"
Roy Mullins>> I thought his strongest argument was on the task
of creating light and shadow with nothing but lines and color.
Karyn McCoy>> I think Leonardo looked at painting knowing how
challenging it was, and viewed sculpting as a lesser art.
It was all in the perspective.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes, which would be a strong stereotype of sculptor,s
just because they work hard doesn't make them more "dirty"
or less educated by any means.
Mario Maiorana>> he look down on sculpture ofer painting
Roy Mullins>> I suspect Mario can testify that the subtractive
nature of the sculptor's work is what makes it the most exacting.
Johnny Limones>> hey im here . late but here
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes he did and I most certainly agree with that
Roy Mullins>> Welcome J
Roy Mullins>> and gone
Karyn McCoy>> I think he viewed them as more barbaric and less
eduacated.
Johnny Limones>> thanks
Mario Maiorana>> he was biased
Karyn McCoy>> Again it was his perspective.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Which part of the sculptors argument do you
guys feel was the strongest? and which part the weakest?
Roy Mullins>> L was definitely biased, but some of his arguments
bear consideration. (I consider the forms equaol in value,
differrent, but equal.)
Karyn McCoy>> I agree.
Johnny Limones>> yea me too
Vanessa Mayhew>> I think he agress they are equal in durability
but not in beauty
Vanessa Mayhew>> which would obviously not be true to a sculptor
Karyn McCoy>> Yes but going to the question on the sculptors
viewpoint, they would feel that what they created was equal
in beauty.
Roy Mullins>> The Pieta (Michelangelo) v Sunflowers (Van Gogh)
= tie
Karyn McCoy>> ah, beauty. Different but still beautiful.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I think the sculptors argument that if he takes
off too much of the outer portion of his martier he can't
add it later like the painter can
Vanessa Mayhew>> is the strongest
Roy Mullins>> We could venture into some critical theory, but
the artist and the viewer are cocreative in the text of the
work.
Johnny Limones>> yes i agree vanessa
Karyn McCoy>> Like you mentioned Roy, layer after layer of paint.
But there is no more marble if it breaks.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I don't really know the weakest argument. Does
anyone have any opinions of that?
Roy Mullins>> I once sat in front of Cincent's "Sunflowers' at
the Smithsonian and sobbed. I don't even like flowers, but
the artist (regardless of his/her media) communicates with
his/her audience.
Roy Mullins>> Vincent's
Mario Maiorana>> I think the last sentence is weak
Karyn McCoy>> It is amazing when you can relate to a painting.
Now maybe looking at them with different eyes
Vanessa Mayhew>> Yes, but I don't really think that would be
from a sculptors point of view Mario. That's why I can't
figure it out.
Johnny Limones>> ill be back
Karyn McCoy>> What?
Vanessa Mayhew>> Oh well. The next four quesitons are to be posting
in our group posting and I guess answering these would be
what Roy needs to look at for our discussion board
Vanessa Mayhew>> *Do you think one type of art is superior to
another?
Mario Maiorana>> no
Karyn McCoy>> No
Vanessa Mayhew>> NO
Roy Mullins>> I see no priority. Different media for expressing
the ineffable.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I feel like we have summarized many reasons
why so far, and obviously in the paragone he was extremely
biased
Mario Maiorana>> is a discussion like the paragone usefull or
just an opinion?
Roy Mullins>> Even so, hearing directly from the artist was instructive.
Even though his classification biased his presentation, all
of it was illuminating.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I think it may be a useful way to express your
opinion and argue what you feel is strong about your art
is a good point to the paragone
Karyn McCoy>> I think its like brainstorming. No answer is wrong.
It is an idea. Although just like any discussions people
bring to the table their own bias.
Roy Mullins>> Smetimes one's biases make the oponents case.
Vanessa Mayhew>> and it would be interesting to see a sculptures
response
Mario Maiorana>> yes
Vanessa Mayhew>> Very much so K!
Karyn McCoy>> Most artists are passionate people. So I imagine
in those times there were a lot of heated discussions.
Vanessa Mayhew>> So I think we can argue it was a useful discussion
tool, if nothing else it was good to educate people of your
opinion on a craft
Karyn McCoy>> I agree.
Mario Maiorana>> definately
Roy Mullins>> Often one of the bases of success, particularly
for te geniuses is the absolute belief that they are absolutely
riight,
Vanessa Mayhew>> How di dyour week as an artist influence your
interpretation of this reading?
Mario Maiorana>> I could relate to what he was stating
Karyn McCoy>> I think it was very influential. To attempt to
do something that they did was very intimidating. I learned
to appreciate this experience
Roy Mullins>> I was biased going in. I saw the two dimensional
as very difficult and challenging, but L actually changed
my mind with his blan=tant bias.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I suppose mine did the opposite of how Leonardo
feels. Not that I feel that my drawing was easy to do, I
feel like sculpting would have been much more mentally taxing,
as well as physically, especailly if it was marble
Vanessa Mayhew>> That's a very interesting way to look at it
Roy. He argued against his art in your opinion.
Roy Mullins>> I have always envied the sculptor who can SEE the
statue hidden in the marble and then coax it into being.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Well, not exactly against but he turned your
respect in a different way
Vanessa Mayhew>> Exactly with very little room for correction.
Mario Maiorana>> What is our consensus?
Roy Mullins>> I recently saw a marble statue of two sleeping
children. I caught myself whispering to my wife I suppose
to avoid awakening them. Cold lifeless beautiful iving marble.
Vanessa Mayhew>> That work of art is more beautiful or more difficult
to create
Roy Mullins>>
Mario Maiorana>> it is definately not easy to be artistic
Karyn McCoy>> I think we are a bit changed from this experience.
Maybe we stop in look deeply at a painting. Or we sigh when
we see a statue. It touches us in some way. Both beautiful
both leaving an imprint on our memoies.
Roy Mullins>> I think what we agreed upon was that art, in its
differing forms is work. That it is created. Someone took
an idea and made it physical and That is a beautiful thing
to behold.
Mario Maiorana>> very true roy
Vanessa Mayhew>> Alright, does anyone else feel that we need
to discuss further anything in order to put together our
paragone discussion posting?
Karyn McCoy>> I think we are good.
Mario Maiorana>> i think we covered it well
Vanessa Mayhew>> Roy, do you think you can make something of
all this?
Roy Mullins>> I think you should just post it as is. Can you
copy it and put it on our discussion site for Johnny to post?
Johnny Limones>> hey sorry really bad connection
Roy Mullins>> I really like the way this went and don't see the
need to pretty it up.
Vanessa Mayhew>> Well the assignment says that our group posting
should summarize the conclusions we reached on the last four
questions
Vanessa Mayhew>> I think it is supposed to be cleaned like our
biography was because it will be in our gallery
Roy Mullins>> I can do that. I'll put it together and get a file
posted early tomorrow.
Johnny Limones>> but cant she see our chats anyways
Karyn McCoy>> Can you please summarize and maybe use some quotes?
Vanessa Mayhew>> Ya, we were talking about copy and pasting
Vanessa Mayhew>> No rush Roy
Karyn McCoy>> Like you said V it is suppose to cover the last
four questions.
Roy Mullins>> I hope so, I can't see bacl past mid way.
Vanessa Mayhew>> I have the whole convo, I do it every time to
make sure we don't loose anything
Vanessa Mayhew>> I can email it to you through webct
Karyn McCoy>> V can you post it like you do in our chat sessions.
Vanessa Mayhew>> it isn't due until the 9th so I'm sure if you
get it to Johnny by the 5th or so that should be fine
Vanessa Mayhew>> I certainly can do that.
Johnny Limones>> so what can i do
Roy Mullins>> roy.mullins@gmail.com


Ok well I personally agree with everyone’s decision. I also think that the sculptor is more at risk to ruining his piece than the painter. The painter can just paint over his mistakes. On the other hand if you try to switch the places of both the sculptor and the painter, they would probably have difficulty in achieving what the other has achieved. As some of you said, art is in the eye of the creator and the beholder. Art can be whatever you want it to be as long as there is a connection between the person and the piece. A sculptor’s duty may be more physical but all they have to know is what and how to carve. A painter would need to know how light plays with color and also all the different types of paints to use while making sure he mixes the right paints together. Over all I would have to agree with the sculptor’s point of view only because he is more at risk to ruining his hard work.